18:53:15 * GregNoel is no longer marked as being away
18:58:55 * stevenknight (n=stevenkn@69.36.227.131) has joined #scons
19:00:04 GregNoel Hi, Steven. Gary has said he would likely be late; anybody else here for the bug party?
19:00:21 stevenknight i don't see Bill, and he's the other stalwart
19:00:57 GregNoel And only you and I commented in the spreadsheet, and you didn't finish.
19:00:59 stevenknight i'm just getting into the Current Issues spreadsheet -- I'm taking th late shuttle home tonight
19:01:08 stevenknight right, just catching up
19:01:17 stevenknight the existing comments were mine from last week
19:02:03 * garyo-home (n=chatzill@209-6-158-38.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com) has joined #scons
19:02:13 GregNoel Gary's not that late, after all
19:02:24 garyo-home Hi Greg.
19:02:44 garyo-home Hi, Steven.
19:02:55 GregNoel Hey, Gary. You said you would be late.
19:03:23 garyo-home Snuck out just in time, or mostly.
19:03:43 GregNoel I think Steven is in a different window, updating the current issues spreadsheet; he should be back soon.
19:03:36 stevenknight hey gary
19:03:39 garyo-home Hi
19:03:43 stevenknight how'd your release go last week?
19:03:56 stevenknight GregNoel's ESP ++
19:04:12 garyo-home Release went great. I haven't got a lot of time for scons these days due to things at work.
19:04:31 garyo-home We're growing the company, got new investors, new CEO... lots of new & exciting stuff
19:04:39 garyo-home but it takes up all my time & then some.
19:04:43 GregNoel The disadvantage of working for a living...
19:04:55 garyo-home ...says the retired Unix guru.
19:05:03 GregNoel {;-}
19:05:03 stevenknight :-)
19:05:27 garyo-home So anyway, that's all in apology for the fact that I haven't touched the spreadsheets.
19:05:20 stevenknight well, shall we make as good use of the time as we can, then?
19:05:39 garyo-home Yes, let's dive in. Current issues first?
19:05:42 stevenknight i might disconnect briefly in ~10 minutes, i have to transfer shuttles
19:05:45 stevenknight yes current issues
19:05:47 GregNoel 2124
19:06:12 stevenknight 1.x p3 me
19:06:20 garyo-home ok w/ me.
19:06:23 GregNoel I admit a traceback is unfriendly, and something should be done about that, but the problem is that ...
19:06:34 stevenknight parts of the VS revamp will try to clean up some general windows issues
19:06:40 GregNoel he's really using a different name for the file.
19:07:08 GregNoel With that said, 1.x p3 makes as much sense as anything.
19:07:23 stevenknight okay, let's go with it
19:07:27 GregNoel done
19:07:29 * bdbaddog (n=bdeegan@adsl-71-131-30-2.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #scons
19:07:36 GregNoel Hey, Bill.
19:07:39 garyo-home 2121 has come up a few times on the list, right?
19:07:41 garyo-home Hi Bill.
19:07:51 stevenknight Bill!
19:08:29 GregNoel Yes, and I think there may be dups, but I couldn't find them.
19:08:41 stevenknight what is there about the confusing VariantDir feature that *hasn't* come up a few times on the list?
19:08:46 garyo-home The patch seems reasonable on the face of it.
19:09:05 GregNoel (patch?)
19:09:19 garyo-home 212 has a patch and a test.
19:09:23 garyo-home sorry 2121.
19:10:07 GregNoel Ah, it looks like that came along after I commented.
19:10:09 garyo-home Anyway, I agree w/ you guys on 1.x p2.
19:10:38 GregNoel Yes, 1.x p2 is even stronger with a patch to work from.
19:10:50 stevenknight yeah, 1.x p2 -- the patch looks good (haven't looked at the test case) and should be rewarded
19:10:59 garyo-home ok, good.
19:11:01 GregNoel done
19:11:54 garyo-home 2122 is a way not to have to use src_builder iiuc?
19:12:04 stevenknight right, essentially
19:12:13 stevenknight let you add new src_builders dynamically
19:12:13 GregNoel I don't know if this is the best API, but I agree that it something should be done.
19:12:45 stevenknight and with some supported API so everyone doesn't have to cut-and-paste all the obj_builder stuff that's initialized in Tool/__init__.py
19:12:43 GregNoel I published the long-promised requirements for better messages earlier today; that has a comment about this issue.
19:13:10 stevenknight sounds good; i'll take a look when we're done
19:13:12 garyo-home func name is maybe not perfect but yes something like this is good.
19:13:50 stevenknight any objections to sticking with 1.x p3?
19:13:50 GregNoel I think better messages and this are indirectly related, so fixing one will have an impact on both
19:14:04 garyo-home But since it's an enhancement, I'd say low pri for 1.x (p3 max) or else later.
19:14:27 GregNoel My suggestion is the same as better messages, and I don't remember what that was assigned.
19:14:53 garyo-home 1458?
19:15:08 garyo-home um, nope.
19:15:09 stevenknight greg, what was the thread from earlier today re: better messages?
19:15:12 stevenknight you have me intrigued now
19:15:28 GregNoel wiki BetterMessages
19:15:35 stevenknight okay
19:15:36 stevenknight 2123:
19:15:51 stevenknight consensus 1.x p2 ?
19:15:58 GregNoel fine with me
19:16:09 stevenknight who?
19:16:11 garyo-home ok. I can probably do it.
19:16:42 garyo-home It looks pretty easy.
19:16:42 stevenknight okay, thanks -- just added your name to the spreadsheet
19:16:45 stevenknight 2125:
19:17:30 GregNoel 2122: http://scons.org/wiki/BetterErrorMessages
19:17:41 garyo-home 2125: if Tools inherited from a base class, they wouldn't have to implement exists().
19:18:09 stevenknight have to switch buses, might drop momentarily
19:18:46 garyo-home ... and if they were subclasses it'd be easy to see what's a Tool.
19:18:51 GregNoel Tools are not classes; they're modules (i.e., imported)
19:19:34 garyo-home Yeah (though there are other types, but classes aren't among them). I guess we can't really change that.
19:20:01 GregNoel Not easily; there's also the backward-compatible issue.
19:20:22 garyo-home A module can inherit stuff, but doing that just to avoid writing 'return True' seems overkill.
19:20:52 garyo-home I think this bug is making a mountain out of a molehill; should be 2.x low pri if anything.
19:21:25 garyo-home Greg, what you say in the ssheet is spot on.
19:21:42 GregNoel I agree; it's overkill. That's why I suggested wontfix.
19:21:52 garyo-home I agree, wontfix.
19:22:13 GregNoel If Steven makes it back without dropping, we can have a consensus.
19:22:38 * sgk_ (n=stevenkn@69.36.227.135) has joined #scons
19:22:46 garyo-home .. and here he is now.
19:22:50 sgk_ I'm back -- thought I was still connected but I guess not
19:22:54 GregNoel We'll probably be changing this interface with the toolchain stuff, but I'd like to leave it until then.
19:23:09 sgk_ still on the exists() thing?
19:23:14 GregNoel Yes
19:23:11 garyo-home Greg & I say "wontfix" 2125.
19:23:16 garyo-home yes, exists().
19:23:35 sgk_ do new-style classes allow it to be treated like gary was suggested (re: subclassing)?
19:23:45 sgk_ old-style classes definitely didn't
19:24:04 garyo-home don't know
19:24:06 GregNoel I don't think so...
19:24:15 sgk_ okay, well not terribly important
19:24:41 GregNoel do we have a consensus?
19:24:46 sgk_ this was from a colleague lobbying me re: all the cut-and-paste "def exists(): return True" at the bottom of all the written modules
19:24:58 sgk_ wontfix is fine with me
19:25:10 garyo-home you can blame it on us.
19:25:22 GregNoel yeah, we're hardcore
19:25:34 sgk_ lol
19:25:43 GregNoel 2126?
19:25:44 sgk_ 2126 then:
19:26:11 sgk_ no real strong feelings so far -- any reason not to leave it 1.x p4?
19:26:11 garyo-home Having these as functions would be nice, I say 1.x p4
19:26:25 sgk_ done
19:26:28 sgk_ 2127:
19:26:40 GregNoel Moving to Python 2.2 would allow these to be written as simple names,
19:26:51 GregNoel but that would require waiting until 2.x
19:27:04 sgk_ ah, that should be at least noted in the issue
19:27:12 GregNoel OK, wilco
19:27:15 sgk_ i'll add a comment in the background here
19:28:18 sgk_ 2127:
19:28:53 GregNoel 2127, I'd like to spin this off onto someone who has the background with all the variations.
19:29:23 garyo-home I do, but even with that it's not clear what the right answer is.
19:29:23 GregNoel But who? I surely don't.
19:29:32 bdbaddog Good evening all.
19:29:52 garyo-home If a user says RPATH=XXX, should we try to provide those semantics by jiggling other linker args?
19:29:57 GregNoel Hey, Bill...
19:30:01 garyo-home Hi, Bill.
19:30:29 bdbaddog Greetings finally back from HI, and then OC. phew.
19:30:41 GregNoel Somehow, autoconf figures it out, since they support rpath, but ...
19:30:44 sgk_ sounds like there's enough uncertainty that 2127 should either be a research for someone
19:30:55 GregNoel ... the complexity looks intimidating.
19:31:20 garyo-home I'll be happy to research it. But at some point scons has to say "this compiler doesn't support RPATH (or not well enough)" and punt.
19:31:25 GregNoel Your research or my research? They're different.
19:31:21 sgk_ or a 1.x-p3-and-reprioritize if "research" is too much of a backburner
19:31:40 GregNoel Ah, your research.
19:31:45 sgk_ yours (i.e., should be investigated)
19:31:49 garyo-home I have a bunch of Macs with different OSes, so I can at least poke them all.
19:31:49 sgk_ heh
19:31:58 sgk_ okay, garyo research
19:32:15 GregNoel My research takes priority over 1.0, i.e., research it now.
19:32:24 sgk_ i think research should be Greg's interpretation (AIIU, investigate for reprioritization)
19:32:31 sgk_ but in practice that doesn't seem how we're handling it
19:32:38 sgk_ right
19:32:51 GregNoel but if Gary wants to do it, I'll let him have it.
19:33:04 GregNoel garyo research
19:33:05 garyo-home (Hmm, do I have any research items? Not sure...) what I want is 1.x research (i.e. research as a priority)
19:33:05 sgk_ okay, gary, research
19:33:30 sgk_ that's kind of what I've morphed 1.x p3 into, mentally
19:33:34 garyo-home but I'll get something done on it.
19:33:47 GregNoel no, research and 1.x are both milestones; can't change the names of the priorities.
19:33:51 sgk_ I figure we're going to have a big reprioritization of 1.x issues at some point
19:33:57 sgk_ to break them down into manageable chunks
19:34:04 sgk_ cause there's just too much there right now
19:34:12 GregNoel You do have a talent for understatement {;-}
19:34:44 garyo-home oh well, that just means there may be lots of 1.x's
19:34:59 garyo-home (or we slip things til 2.0 of course)
19:35:16 GregNoel Aye, there's the slip, er, rub
19:35:21 garyo-home anyway, 2128 is next...
19:35:29 sgk_ maybe. we need to discuss releasing 1.0 (I think 0.98.5 has baked enough)
19:35:32 GregNoel 2128, David
19:35:45 sgk_ and when/how to branch so there's a place for relevant dev work
19:35:54 sgk_ 2128: david
19:36:04 garyo-home 2128 Includes doc patch, I say 1.0 or 1.0.x.
19:36:15 GregNoel True, but not quite yet; one issue later may need to be slipped in.
19:36:23 garyo-home Steven: yes, it's getting to that point.
19:36:48 garyo-home We can branch it any time and just merge things that need to go in.
19:37:00 GregNoel You're looking at 2129; no patch for 2128
19:37:10 sgk_ 2128: 1.0 for the doc patch
19:37:19 sgk_ ? i see an attachment to 2128
19:37:23 garyo-home me too.
19:37:39 garyo-home a trivial two-liner.
19:37:53 sgk_ 2129 is another david Fortran thing, though
19:38:22 garyo-home 2129: wow, a patch which is *just* a test.
19:38:27 sgk_ 2129: anyone, anytime (it's an added test)
19:38:29 GregNoel Yeah, but is it the doc or the implementation?
19:38:45 garyo-home 2128: doc. 2129: test for implementation.
19:39:02 sgk_ no, greg's suggesting that although 2128 might "fix" the doc,
19:39:12 GregNoel OK, 2128 1.0 David, 2129 anytime
19:39:13 sgk_ the doc might be right (the *CPP* variables *should* be in the command line)
19:39:16 sgk_ and the code needs fixing
19:39:22 garyo-home aha, I see.
19:39:57 GregNoel David either way.
19:40:00 garyo-home We would need David to answer that.
19:40:07 * stevenknight has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:40:14 garyo-home there goes Steven.
19:40:18 sgk_ right, done 2128: david, 1.0, with a note about the doc-vs.-code
19:40:20 GregNoel Ah, we just lost Steven...
19:40:25 sgk_ hey , where'd i go?
19:40:39 GregNoel vanished in to the AEther...
19:40:46 garyo-home hm, my irc client said your connection timed out.
19:40:41 sgk_ (that was the connection through the other bus timing out)
19:41:04 garyo-home I see.
19:41:17 sgk_ okay, 2129: anyone, anytime
19:41:28 sgk_ 2130:
19:41:50 garyo-home 2130, doc license issues: can we satisfy them somehow, maybe a CC license of some kind?
19:42:03 GregNoel Have you figured out what he really wants?
19:42:06 garyo-home That would let you still print the UG?
19:42:17 sgk_ CC license would be the right thing, i suppose
19:42:30 sgk_ this is probably a research, me to figure out how where to draw the line
19:42:38 GregNoel OK, works for me
19:42:44 sgk_ yeah, they want to make the UG available on (e.g.) Debian
19:43:01 sgk_ but it's copyright me, not the SCons Foundation, and it's unclear if they can legallly do it
19:43:03 GregNoel although getting it into 1.0 would be good
19:43:09 sgk_ i'll sort it out
19:43:14 GregNoel OK, works for me
19:43:20 garyo-home ok
19:43:28 sgk_ just changed it to research (Greg's research)
19:43:48 GregNoel Ah, really?
19:44:04 sgk_ well, i won't promise, but I do conceptually agree with it
19:44:26 garyo-home ok, 2131 (glob needs to sort)?
19:44:28 GregNoel I thought I understood the initial request, but not since.
19:44:31 sgk_ in practice, right now i'm prioritizing UG updates over research to get 1.0 out
19:44:59 sgk_ 2131: is there any downside to making Glob() return a deterministic order?
19:45:02 sgk_ i can't think of one
19:45:18 GregNoel glob.glob doesn't sort; why should Glob?
19:45:21 garyo-home We should definitely sort it.
19:45:31 sgk_ principle of least surprise
19:45:34 garyo-home Who would want it in random order?
19:45:45 bdbaddog and you could use --random if you did...
19:45:53 GregNoel "least astonishment" yes, you're probably right.
19:46:00 sgk_ having SCons rebuild things whenever it feels like it because you use Glob() seems really unehlpful
19:46:23 garyo-home right, I think this should be 1.0.x p2. Easy and helpful.
19:46:33 bdbaddog gotta run. hey can someone look at my comments bug 243. I did some research and seems like a real bug where we thought it was doc bug before.
19:46:53 GregNoel later
19:46:56 sgk_ okay, we'll try to look at 243
19:46:57 sgk_ later
19:47:03 garyo-home bye
19:47:14 sgk_ 2131: 1.0.x p2?
19:47:36 GregNoel ok, I guess
19:47:55 garyo-home fine w/ me.
19:48:12 GregNoel 2132
19:48:34 sgk_ 2132: Ralf's fixes tend to be pretty good
19:48:40 sgk_ i haven't lookat the code on this one yet, though
19:48:44 sgk_ looked at
19:48:45 GregNoel sgk_, I'm pretty sure it was an earlier issue
19:48:55 GregNoel It uses subprocess
19:49:00 garyo-home Can we use subprocess.Popen()?
19:49:16 sgk_ should be able to, the compatibility layer has a subprocess module that works under 1.5.2
19:49:27 GregNoel we hope
19:50:01 GregNoel If we can't find the dup, I move for 1.0.x
19:50:16 sgk_ agreed
19:50:22 sgk_ 1.0.x... p3?
19:50:28 garyo-home That early? OK I guess since there's a good patch.
19:50:28 sgk_ or p2?
19:50:44 GregNoel yes, and if we find the dup, make it the same.
19:50:48 sgk_ ~5 minutes until i leave the bus
19:51:04 GregNoel and we're not even out of the current issues...
19:51:09 sgk_ i'll volunteer to hunt for the dup
19:51:12 sgk_ so put my name on it
19:51:16 GregNoel ok, done
19:51:24 sgk_ two weeks' worth
19:51:37 GregNoel but only five new ones
19:51:42 sgk_ true
19:51:47 garyo-home 2133: invalid, or should we try to handle AddPostAction differently (no implicit dep on cmd)?
19:51:53 sgk_ 2133: i think this case should work
19:52:01 sgk_ it used to, and it doesn't seem unreasonable
19:52:09 sgk_ ("should be made to work (again)" that is)
19:52:33 garyo-home AddPostAction cmds don't really need to be dependencies anyway, so I agree.
19:52:39 GregNoel sounds like a hack...
19:52:49 GregNoel Hmmm... I think they do
19:52:53 garyo-home No, because AddPostAction is not a builder.
19:53:01 sgk_ agree w/gary
19:53:11 GregNoel think of a local command that JFCLs through the binary
19:53:12 sgk_ plus it's easier to add an explicit Depends() if you really want that dependency
19:53:18 garyo-home Builder cmds should get auto deps, but not Pre/Post actions.
19:53:20 sgk_ than to shut it off
19:53:26 GregNoel the command should be rebuilt if it changes
19:53:52 sgk_ hmm, Greg i do see your point -- SCM purity would require it
19:53:53 garyo-home Greg: hm, I have to think about that.
19:54:11 GregNoel we're not going to settle this now; not enough time; resume here next time?
19:54:14 sgk_ since you can't know the AddPostAction() is irrelevant
19:54:22 sgk_ works for me
19:54:36 GregNoel OK, then, when next?
19:54:38 garyo-home ok. Same time, same place, next week?
19:54:45 sgk_ same time, etc.
19:54:53 GregNoel 19h00? or 17h00?
19:55:02 garyo-home 1900 is good for me, how about you?
19:55:07 sgk_ 19h00 is fine with me
19:55:13 GregNoel fine with me
19:55:16 garyo-home Greg: I'll do the data entry this week from your irc log
19:55:17 sgk_ done
19:55:25 sgk_ gary: thanks
19:55:43 GregNoel ok, although I have the time this week
19:55:50 sgk_ i'll probably start a release@ thread re: really releasing 1.0
19:56:02 garyo-home sgk_: I was just going to suggest that.
19:56:14 GregNoel good idea
19:56:28 garyo-home Greg: thanks but I think I can handle it, gotta contribute somehow...
19:56:49 garyo-home plus I'll be on vacation 23rd - 6th
19:56:50 GregNoel Personally, I'd rather you were editing the spreadsheets...
19:57:06 sgk_ disconnect in < 15 seconds, later
19:57:08 garyo-home OK, I agree. I'll make some time for that too.
19:57:19 GregNoel ok, later
19:57:24 * sgk_ has quit ("Leaving")
19:57:25 garyo-home bye guys.
19:57:29 GregNoel cul
19:57:35 * garyo-home has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0/2008052906]")
19:57:37 * GregNoel has been marked as being away

BugParty/IrcLog2008-07-14 (last edited 2008-07-16 03:27:24 by GregNoel)